NOTICE by Google LLC re [362] Order on Motion to Seal NOTICE OF FILING UNREDACTED AND UNSEALED DOCUMENTS (Attachments: # (1) Supplement UNREDACTED Reply Brief, # (2) Exhibit 19 UNSEALED, # (3) Exhibit 20 UNSEALED, # (4) Exhibit 22 UNSEALED)(Reilly, Craig)
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
__________________________
:
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, :
et al.,
:
:
Plaintiffs
:
:
v.
: No.
:
GOOGLE, LLC,
:
:
Defendants.
:
__________________________:
1:23-cv-
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
Monday, August 21,
Video Deposition of CHRISTOPHER KOEPKE,
taken at the Law Offices of Paul, Weiss,
Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP, 2001 K St NW,
Washington, DC, beginning at 9:35 a.m. Eastern
Standard Time, before Ryan K. Black, Registered
Professional Reporter, Certified Livenote
Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia
Job No. CSVeritext Legal Solutions
800-567-
FILED PURSUANT TO COURT ORDER DOC.
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
ANTITRUST DIVISION
BY: KATHERINE CLEMONS, ESQ.
VICTOR LIU, ESQ.
ALVIN CHU, ESQ.
MARK SOSNOWSKY, ESQ. - Via Zoom
450 5th Street, N.W
Washington, DC 202.514.katherine.clemons@usdoj.gov
victor.liu@usdoj.gov
alvin.chu@usdoj.gov
mark.sosnowsky@usdoj.gov
Representing - The United States of America
going on the record at 9:35 a.m. on August 21st,
2023. Please note that the microphones are
sensitive and may pick up whispering and private
conversations. Please mute your phones at this
time. Audio and video recording will continue to
take place unless all parties agree to go off the
record.
video-recorded deposition of Mr. Christopher
Koepke in the matter of United States, et al.,
versus Google, LLC, filed in the United States
District Court Eastern District of Virginia
Alexandria Division, Case Number
1:23-cv-00108-LMB-JFA.
representing Veritext Legal Solutions, and I'm
Representing - Google LLC
the videographer. The court reporter is Ryan
Black, from the firm Veritext Legal Solutions.
ALSO PRESENT:
Orson Braithwaite - Legal Videographer
Kenneth Whitley - Department of Health and Human
Services
INDEX
TESTIMONY OF: CHRISTOPHER KOEPKE
By Ms. Goodman.................................EXHIBITS
EXHIBIT
DESCRIPTION
PAGE
Exhibit 65 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-11906 through 11974...
Exhibit 66 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-23248 through 23337...Exhibit 67 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-59892 through 59893...
Exhibit 68 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-593107 through 593110..Exhibit 69 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-183807 through 183811..
Exhibit 70 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-529199 through 529200..Exhibit 71 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-189390.................
Exhibit 72 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-64968 through 64971....Exhibit 73 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-440295.................
This is Media Unit 1 of the
Exhibit 74 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-531032 through 531072..Exhibit 75 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-569654 through 569667..
PAGE
My name is Orson Braithwaite,
Counsel will now state their appearances
and affiliations for the record.
MS. GOODMAN: Martha Goodman, from Paul
Weiss, on behalf of Google LLC.
MS. MILLIGAN: Heather Milligan, also on
behalf of Paul Weiss, for Google.
Page
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are
PAUL, WEISS, RIFKIND, WHARTON & GARRISON LLP,
BY: MARTHA L. GOODMAN, ESQ.
HEATHER C. MILLIGAN, ESQ.
2001 K St NW,
Washington, DC
202.223.mgoodman@paulweiss.com
hmilligan@paulweiss.com
Page
A P P E A R A N C E S:
MS. CLEMONS: Katherine Clemons, with
the Department of Justice, on behalf of the
United States of America, CMS and the witness.
MR. LIU: Victor Liu, also with the
Department of Justice, on behalf of the United
States and CMS.
MR. CHU: Alvin Chu, on behalf of United
States.
MR. WHITLEY: Kenneth Whitley, Office of
General Counsel, Department of Health and Human
Services.
MS. GOODMAN: And could the folks
attending remotely please state your presence?
MR. SOSNOWSKY: Mark Sosnowsky,
Department of Justice, and I will be in and out
of this deposition remotely. So if you lose me,
please don't -- you can continue.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
Would the court reporter please swear in
the witness?
* * *
Whereupon -CHRISTOPHER KOEPKE,
called to testify, having been first duly sworn
or affirmed, was examined and testified as
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follows:
* * *
EXAMINATION
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Koepke.
A. Good morning.
Q. Have you been deposed before?
A. I think once. I'm not exactly sure it
was a formal deposition, -Q. Okay.
A. -- but yes.
Q. Was there a court reporter taking down
everything you were saying?
A. No, there was not.
Q. Okay. So in this deposition,
it's important that you allow me to finish my
question before you answer, because our court
reporter, Mr. Black, is taking down everything
we're saying -A. All right.
Q. -- and he can't take two people talking
at the same time. Okay?
A. All right.
Q. So please let me finish my question
before you begin your answer. Okay?
Page
Page
A. Okay.
Q. Okay. And the court reporter also
cannot record nonverbal answers or half verbal
answers, like uh-huh or huh-uh, so please make
sure to speak in a -- answer the questions
verbally. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Okay. And I will assume that you
understand my questions unless you ask me for a
clarification. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. And is there any reason you're unable to
provide your truthful and accurate testimony here
today?
A. No.
Q. Okay. What is your current title?
A. Director of the Strategic Marketing
Group in the Office of Communications at the
Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.
Q. And what are your responsibilities as
the director of the Strategic Marketing Group at
the Office of Communications at the Centers for
Medicare and Medicaid Services?
A. When -- this federal agency is
responsible for Medicare, Medicaid and other
healthcare programs. When we need people,
citizens of America to take an action, it is my
job to do outreach to help them know what actions
they need to take. I could probably go on for
the rest of the day with details on that.
Q. I'm sure we'll get to it. How long have
you been the director -- is the strategic
marketing -- strike that.
Is the Strategic Marketing Group
abbreviated SMG?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. How long have you been director
of SMG?
A. Approximately nine to ten years.
Q. And prior to serving as director of SMG,
what -- what job did you have, if any?
A. I was the deputy director of the
Creative Services Group in the Office of
Communications at the Centers for Medicare and
Medicaid Services.
Q. And how long were you the deputy
director of the Creative Services Group?
A. I would say three to four years.
Q. In your role as director of SMG, who do
you report to?
A. I report to the deputy director of the
Office of Communications.
Q. And what is that individual's name?
A. Mary Wallace.
Q. How long has Mary Wallace been the
person to whom you've -- who you report?
A. Nine to ten years.
Q. And to whom does Ms. Wallace report?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; foundation.
THE WITNESS: Many people, but the
administrator of CMS.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And who is the current administrator of
CMS?
A. Chiquita Brooks-LaSure.
Q. And how long has Ms. LaSure been the
administrator at CMS?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know when she was
confirmed.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. How many administrators of CMS
have you worked under over the course of your
time as director of SMG?
A. I could give you an approximate number.
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I'm sure I might be forgetting someone. Five or
six.
Q. And how about in the time period of to 2023, how many administrators have you worked
under in that time period?
A. There's one detail I can't remember, but
from confirmed administrators by the Senate would
be two.
Q. And what is the one detail you can't
remember?
A. Usually in between confirmed
administrators there is a career administrator,
and I cannot remember who that was or how many
there were between the last two confirmed ones.
Q. Okay. And are the -- those career
officials, are they serving in an acting
capacity, in your experience?
A. That is correct.
Q. And how many presidential
administrations have you served under?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; vague.
THE WITNESS: Five.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And are those both republican and
democratic administrations?
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A. Yes.
Q. Are you also an adjunct -- oh, strike
that.
Who reports to you in your role as
director of SMG?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: Do you want the entire
list of people or my immediate reports?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Let's go with your direct reports,
please.
A. Okay. There would be three division
directors, a special assistant, a deputy director
and an office administrator.
Q. And has that -- those one, two, three,
four, five -- have you always had six direct
reports in your time as director of SMG?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. How about in the time period of 2019 to
2023, have you always had six direct reports?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Who are the -- what are the three
divisions which report up to you as director of
SMG?
A. One of them is the Division of Research.
Another is the Division of Digital Marketing.
And the other one is the Division of Campaign
Management.
Q. Who is the head -- who is the division
director of the Research Division?
A. Clarese Astrin.
Q. How long has Ms. Astrin been the
director of the Research Division?
A. I'm not sure exactly how many years it's
been.
Q. Can you approximate?
A. About 10 years.
Q. Okay. Who is the director of Digital
Marketing?
A. Mark Krawczyk.
Q. How long has Mr. Krawczyk been the
director of Digital Marketing?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Can you approximate?
A. I can.
Q. What's your approximate -A. Six to seven years.
Q. Who is the director of the Campaign
Management Division?
A. Barbara Johanson.
Q. And how long has Ms. Johanson been the
director of the Campaign Management Division?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. How about an approximation?
A. Three years.
Q. Prior to serving as director of the
Campaign Management Division, did Ms. Johanson
have a role in the SMG?
A. Yes.
Q. What was her role prior to becoming
director of the Campaign Management Division?
A. She was an analyst within that division
that she now directs.
Q. And who is the deputy director that
reports to you?
A. Laura Salerno.
Q. How long has she been the direct
-- deputy director at SMG?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. How about an approximation?
A. Three to four years.
Q. Prior to being the deputy director, did
Ms. Salerno have a job in the SMG?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. What was her role prior to becoming the
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deputy director?
A. She was the division director at the
division of Campaign Management.
Q. Ah. So Ms. Johanson succeeded
Ms. Salerno in that role; is that correct?
A. There would be points of clarification
on that, but for this purpose, yes.
Q. What are the points of clarification
that you're -- you're referencing?
A. Immediately following Laura becoming the
deputy director, we went through a few people on
detail to -- as it takes time to post a
position -Q. Got it.
A. -- and for people to compete.
Q. What are the responsibilities of the
Campaign Management Division?
A. There are many. Is there -- would -- do
you want to be more specific?
Q. Could you please start with a summary of
the responsibilities of the Campaign Management
Division?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I could, but I'm wondering
what part you would like me to summarize.
Page
Page
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. I want to understand at first a
high-level summary of what the Campaign
Management respons -- division's responsibilities
are.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And then I can ask further questions
from there to drill down on what I'm hoping to
learn from your testimony here today. Okay?
A. Okay. They manage the campaigns that
we conduct to serve people who need access to
healthcare.
Q. And by "campaigns," what do you mean?
A. Programs designed to reach our audiences
and inform them of the actions they need to take
so that they can access healthcare.
Q. And same -- same question for the
Digital Marketing Division. What as a -- can
you provide a high-level summary of the Digital
Marketing di -- division's responsibilities?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: Digital Marketing is
responsible for most of the agency's social media
and our direct response digital marketing
campaigns.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. What are "direct response digital
marketing campaigns"?
A. That's when you reach to individuals
directly, not through advertising, so, say,
email, texting, maybe auto dials.
Q. And so the Digital Marketing Division's
direct response campaigns do not involve
advertising agencies. Is that accurate?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: You know, there's gray
area for everything. I wouldn't -- could you
rephrase the question, please?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. In order to execute their direct
response marketing campaigns, does the Digital
Marketing Division engage with advertising
agencies via a contract?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. What advertising agencies do they engage
with?
A. Weber Shandwick, Elevation, and my other
one would be a guess.
Q. Okay.
A. So I'm not a hundred percent sure. In
fact, I don't think so.
Q. The services that Weber Shandwick
and Elevation provide to the Digital Marketing
Division, are those under the same contracts
between CMS and those advertising agencies that
the Campaign Management Division uses?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think
through time periods. Sorry.
No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So is it accurate that the Digital
Marketing Division goes through a separate
contract with Weber Shandwick, for example, in
order to use advertising services for its work as
compared to the Campaign Management Division?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. Calls
for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay.
A. The purpose there is not to actually do
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But it demonstrated that the outreach resulted in
-- and this is the number I'm not -- but resulted
in many people getting health coverage.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. As compared to the prior year?
A. We did not do Mixed Media Modeling the
private -- prime -- the previous year, so as
related to the number of uninsured people, -Q. Got it.
A. -- the audience at that time. And other
factors that could also increase enrollment.
Q. What are the other factors that could
also increase enrollment to which you're
referring?
A. For a set number of years, a law was
passed that impacted the tax breaks that people
could get for having health insurance, thereby
reducing their premiums for the health insurance.
Q. So over the time period at issue, or
that I'm focusing on in this case, 2019 to 2023,
it's fair to say that the budget available for
advertising and outreach has increased, correct?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Okay. And how have you, in the
Strategic Marketing Group, made decisions about
how to spend those additional dollars over that
time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: We considered the audience
and how best to reach them, and we -- and we
distribute the funds accordingly.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And what changes have you observed with
respect to how best to reach the audiences you're
trying to reach over the 2019 to '23 time period
as part of the Open Enrollment campaigns?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure the channel
mix for most effectively reaching the audience
during that time period, based on my observations
of what would be best for reaching that audience,
has changed significantly, more subtle changes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And what are the subtle changes that you
have observed?
A. Over a time period, and this could be
beyond the time period that you're mentioning, so
that could be the problem with my thinking, but
display advertising has actually appeared, in my
memory, from best that I can recall, to become
more impactful.
Q. In what ways that you can recall has
display advertising become more impactful?
A. Best of my recollection, return on
investment appears to be higher.
Q. And what return on investment are you
tracking with respect to display advertising in
the Open Enrollment campaigns?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: We have primarily three
methods for looking at the role of display.
Method Number 1 is looking at the people who
directly interact with the ad, so what we often
call last-click attribution. Method Number 2 is
multi-source attribution; still within the
digital realm. And Method Number 3 is the Mixed
Media Modeling.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And so in what ways has the return on
investment according to those methods gotten
higher? Like, what changes are you seeing in
those metrics vis-a-vis return on investment?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: To the best of my
recollection, we are seeing an ability to
attribute more application starts, and that is
the number of people who would actually be
applying for the tax break to help them pay for
their health insurance, and more enrolling due to
display ads, to the best of my recollection.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Have you observed any changes with
respect to meeting the audience you're trying to
reach with respect to video advertising in the
2019 to '23 time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are there any other subtle changes that
you have observed over the 2019 to 2023 time
period with respect to reaching the audience
you're trying to reach for health -- Open
Enrollment?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Okay. How about the -- have you
observed any changes in the availability of
advertising providers that you could use to reach
your audience over the 2019 to 2023 time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So earlier we talked about a lot of the
different programmatic providers that CMS has
used.
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. Do you recall that testimony?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. With respect to those providers,
were they all available to CMS in the 2019 year
as compared to the 2023 year?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you aware of any advertising
providers who were not available to CMS in
2019 but who are available to CMS in 2023?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I am not.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
best of my recollection, that type of display
ad has increased in its value to us.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And how does CMS go about -- what
methods does CMS use to place these kinds of
prospecting display ads?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: We direct our contractors
to do it on our behalf.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And do you direct them to use any
particular provider?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: We will direct them to use
particular providers.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. So with respect to the increasing
effectiveness of prospecting display ads, what
providers have you used?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Off the top of my mind, I
can think of two -BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Which are those?
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Q. Okay. So one of the subtle changes
that you said you observed was that display has
become more impactful, correct? And when you say
"display," can you be more detailed about what
kind of display advertising you mean that has
become more impactful as in having a higher
return on investment?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So kind of display really
covers a lot of categories, because there's
creative, there's delivery systems, there's
targeted. Do you have anything particularly in
mind?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. No. I want to understand what you mean
by "display being more impactful."
A. All right.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So to the best of my
recollection, display ads that -- what we would
call -- I don't know. Let me see. I've gotta
think of the term here -- prospecting. So those
are the ads that go out and find people who could
benefit from the program, who may or may not have
ever interacted with the program before. To the
A. Which does not mean that there aren't
others.
Q. Sure.
A. So Google and MIQ.
MS. GOODMAN: Shall we take a break for
lunch?
MS. CLEMONS: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I'm good with whatever.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:
p.m. This ends Unit 2. We're off the record.
(Lunch recess taken.)
(Exhibit No. 65, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-11906 through 11974, was
introduced.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:14 p.m.
This begins Unit Number 3. We're on the record.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Mr. Koepke, I'm going to hand you a
document marked Exhibit 65, CMS-ADS-11906 through
11974.
And this is a technical proposal from
Weber Shandwick for Healthcare.gov 2010 Open
Enrollment campaign, correct?
A. I'm not sure. It's going to take me a
minute to look at it.
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Q. Sure.
A. It appears as such.
Q. Okay. And what is the purpose of a
technical proposal, to your knowledge?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: A technical proposal is
part of a contracting process. So the offerers,
which are the different ad agencies who might be
interested in contracting with the federal
government, would write a technical proposal to
show their abilities to meet the standards that
the federal government has set forward.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And did multiple different contractors
compete each year for the Open Enrollment
campaign, or was it only Webber Shandwick?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Each year?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Each year.
A. Okay. It was not always only Weber
Shandwick, to the best of my knowledge. I'm
actually not a hundred percent sure, but -- so I
don't know.
Q. Okay. As the director of the Strategic
Page
Page
man -- Marketing Group, did you review technical
proposals?
A. No, I did not.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm so sorry.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Have you ever had occasion to read
them?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Have I ever had the
occasion to read a technical proposal of any
sort?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Of -- related to any advertising
campaign handled by the Strategic Marketing Group
at CMS.
A. You had a lot of very specific details
in that question that would lead me to say no.
Q. What are the specific details in my
question that would lead you to say no?
A. One of them was the "Strategic Marketing
Group."
Q. Did I state that incorrectly?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: You did not say "Strategic
Marketing Group" incorrectly. It sounded correct
to me.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. I don't understand what the
detail with respect to the Strategic Marketing
Group led you to say no to my question.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Can you explain that to me?
A. Your question had three parts: Have I
ever read a technical proposal. Is it about
advertising. And is it for the Strategic
Marketing Group at CMS. I guess that's four
parts.
The Strategic Marketing Group did not
exist when I read the technical proposals.
Q. When did you read the technical
proposals?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The early 2000s.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So since the early 2000s, is it accurate
that you have not read the strat -- the technical
proposals submitted by ad agencies?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The technical proposals
are written by -- are read and judged by trained
staff who work for me.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. And so your trained staff read
and review them, but you do not; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Do you discuss the technical
proposals with your staff?
A. I do not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because it is inappropriate for people
judging a technical proposal to talk with other
people about it in the process of an acquisition.
Q. Why is that improper or inappropriate?
A. I would only be doing conjecture, but
it's -- the government has a goal to be fair to
all businesses. And so, therefore, the people
who read the proposals and judge them are doing
so in a non-biased sense. And discussing with
anyone else could -- could increase or add bias
to a process.
Q. And which of your staff reviewed
technical proposals for the Healthcare.gov Open
Enrollment campaigns in the '19 to '23 time
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thing. And -- and just describe other products
and ask us what our goals are, and what have you,
so that they would have a better understanding
about how -- about how their products could be
used, because, of course, they're trying to sell
their products.
Q. Did you find those meetings to be
valuable?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Valuable in what way?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Valuable to the work that you do at CMS
in advertising.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: I find them valuable, in
part, because it's really interesting to me to
see how people do their work. And, yes, some of
the data analytics that we've actually requested
that they've done for us have been valuable.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Despite these meetings also being an
opportunity for Google to explain how their
products could be used, because, of course,
they're trying to sell their products, does CMS
still make an independent decision about which
Page
Page
advertising products or services to use?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. Okay. Anything else, sitting here
today, that you can recall about any
conversations you have had with any individual
from Google -MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. -- relative to CMS's advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: That's a lot to try to
recall. So it -- true specifics? No.
Conversations? Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Any other types of conversations, other
than what we've discussed which you recall having
with Google?
A. Yes. Thank you.
Q. You're welcome.
A. In the search ad -- in the search ad
arena, Google accepts ads -- or has accepted ads,
from people who try to look like the government.
And we discover these ads sometimes. And every
time I see one, I would send it to Kunal, to
Michelle. And -- because most digital companies,
including Google, have a policy that an ad should
not -- what's the word I'm looking for -- mimic
-- that's not the word I'm looking for, but it's
like that, mimic some other existing
organization, or mimic the government when you're
not the government, basically.
So, you know, an ad that says they're
Medicare, and they're not actually Medicare, is
misleading to people, and there are a lot of
those ads on Google. And so when we find them,
we send them and they -- we have conversations
about that.
Q. And what steps, if any, do you ask
Google to take with respect to these ads -- these
search ads you're describing?
A. Take them down immediately. Asked for
some monitoring support. I've asked for it.
That is what I've asked for.
Q. And what -- what has Google, in return,
provided to you with respect to these search ads?
A. Google has taken ads down when we find
them, and that is Whac-A-Mole because anybody can
put up an ad on Google if they've got a credit
card. Google has created new policies about
taking out ads for health insurance, and have met
with us about those policies.
Q. So is it fair to say that Google is
taking steps to address CMS's concerns with
respect to search ads that mimic the government?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It is fair to say Google
has taken steps with regard to search ads.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. How about with respect to display ads?
Are you aware of any conduct on the part of
Google with respect to display ads that has
negatively impacted CMS's advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. And I
would caution the witness not to -- to answer the
question if your answer would reveal privileged
communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question?
A. No.
Q. Prior to having any conversation with
any lawyer with respect to Google Ads, any lawyer
from the government, did you ever have any
concerns that Google was engaging in
anticompetitive conduct related to display
advertising?
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MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. Calls
for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And prior to any conversation with any
lawyer for the government, did you ever have any
concerns that Google was causing CMS to pay more
for display advertising than it should have been
paying?
A. Could you rephrase that, please -- or
not rephrase. Just repeat it. That's what I
meant. I'm so sorry.
Q. That's okay.
A. I used the wrong word.
Q. Prior to any conversation with any
lawyer for the government, did you ever have any
concerns that Google was causing CMS to pay more
for display advertising than it should have been
paying?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: The tough part here is
"should have been paying." That's an -- a really
-- that suggests a lot of information.
That being said, yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Page
Page
Q. And what -- what concerns did you have
with respect to Google causing CMS to pay more
for display advertising than it should have been
paying prior to any conversation with a lawyer
for the government?
A. It is possible -- in fact, indeed,
probable, that when you are purchasing ads on a
cost-per-impression basis, that you're buying
things that are not useful to you.
Q. And so in what ways has Google, to your
knowledge, caused you to buy things that are not
useful to you on a cost-per-impression basis?
And when I say you, I mean CMS.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It has been a concern that
we have discussed. Whether it is -- the way you
put the question was, like, pure knowledge.
Because other ways to potentially buy, which we
have not been able to do, would be to buy based
on outcomes instead of impressions.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And is Google the only provider that you
buy ads on an impression basis for, or are there
other providers -MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. -- who charge on such a basis, to your
knowledge?
MS. CLEMONS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: There are other providers.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And do you have the same concerns with
respect to providers other than Google who charge
on a cost-per-impression basis?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. Has anybody at any advertising
agency with whom CMS works ever told you that
Google was engaging in anticompetitive conduct
related to display advertising?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Okay. So sitting here today, and prior
to any conversation with any lawyer for the
government, can you recall any concerns you've
ever had with respect to Google's conduct and its
affect on CMS's display advertising purchases?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Extremely informal
conversations between me and my colleagues.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And what extremely informal
conversations between you and your colleagues are
you referencing?
A. Ones where we notice that all
the digital ads that we place go through
double-click; that the analytics come through
Google analytics. There just seems to be a lot
of Google along the ways. And we've had those
comments, conversations and we just move on.
Because, in the end of the day, we're just doing
our jobs.
Q. And have you rai -- ever raised those
conversations with anybody outside of your
colleagues?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to the extent
that question calls for privileged communications
with counsel. If you're -- if you can answer
without referencing or being informed by
privileged communications with counsel, you
may do so.
THE WITNESS: Sorry. I'm just trying to
think and remember. It's mental gymnastics at
this point. So -BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Was it in 2023 or 2022?
A. I believe it was in 2023.
Q. And how did you become aware in 2023 of
an investigation by the Department of Justice
into Google?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; privileged.
And I'm going to instruct the witness not to
answer to the extent that your answer would be
informed by or reveal privileged communications
with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question,
sir?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So is it fair to say, then, you
became aware of an investigation by DOJ through
lawyers?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. Calls for
privileged information. I'm going to instruct
the witness not to answer.
MS. GOODMAN: I'm not asking for the
communications. I'm asking for how he learned of
something. The fact of learning it from lawyers
is not privileged, one way or another. I'm not
asking for the communications by which he learned
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of it. I'm not asking for the substance of any
discussions. I'm asking for how he learned this
fact.
MS. CLEMONS: You are assuming that he
learned something and then asking whether he
learned that fact through communications with
counsel, which is the topic of the communication
with counsel through which someone would learn
something.
MS. GOODMAN: And it's the same kind of
thing that would appear on a privilege log. It
doesn't delve into the substance of the
communications.
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to instruct the
witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. Are you going to follow that
instruction?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: Can I have Tab 3?
(Exhibit No. 71, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-189390, was introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Exhibit 71, CMS-ADS-189390. This is a
Microsoft Teams invite for a meeting. Subject:
DOJ HHS CMS call regarding online advertising
purchasing, which you are on in the "To" line,
correct?
A. I'm trying to get the subject. I will
say what is correct is that I am on the "To"
line.
Ah, there's the subject. Sorry.
DOJ HHS CMS call regarding online
advertising purchasing, so, yes, correct.
Q. And this -- did you recall -- do you
recall participating in this call on January 6th,
2023?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And to your recollection, did the
call last the 30 minutes between 3 and 3:30 p.m.
as reflected on this meeting invite?
A. I do not recollect.
Q. Okay. Do you think it lasted longer or
shorter than that amount of time?
A. I do not recollect.
Q. Okay. Did you understand the purpose of
this call to -- for DOJ to understand how CMS
buys online ads?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. To the
extent that question calls for privileged
communications with counsel, I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer if your answer
would be informed by communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question?
A. I'm going to take counsel's direction.
Q. Okay. So the only knowledge you have as
to the purpose of this call is from lawyers; is
that correct?
MS. CLEMONS: You can answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. Sitting here today, can you think
of any other source, other than communications
with counsel, that informed your understanding of
the purpose of this call in Exhibit 71 on January
6th, 2023?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to object to the
extent it calls for communications with other CMS
employees that were directed by counsel. So you
may answer so long as your answer would not
reveal privileged communications with counsel or
directed by counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Can you answer that question?
A. I'm going to take counsel's instruction.
Q. Okay. Well, she said you may answer as
long as your answer would not reveal privileged
communications with counsel or directed by
counsel, so can you answer?
A. By saying I'm taking the instruction,
I'm taking the second half of that, that it is
privileged communication.
Q. Okay. How do you know if any
communications that you have had with any
CMS employee are directed by counsel?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to the
extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel, or communications
with other CMS employees that were directed by
counsel, I'm going to instruct the witness not to
answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Can you answer that question, sir?
A. I cannot.
Q. Okay. At the time of this meeting,
January 6th, 2023, did you have any personal
view on participating in a conversation with the
Department of Justice on the topic of online
Page
Page
advertising purchasing?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. And
I'm also going to instruct the witness not to
answer if your answer would reveal the
com -- privileged communications with counsel.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So setting aside any conversations with
any lawyer, I'm asking for your personal view on
having to participate in a conversation with
regard to online advertising purchasing. Did you
have a personal view one way or the other?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Did you want to participate in that
call?
A. That's a different question.
Q. Okay. What's the answer to that
question?
A. Sort of.
Q. Why do you say "sort of"?
A. I'm a curious person.
Q. Is there any reason you did not want to
participate in that call?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not particularly.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. When -- at the time of this
communication in January 2023, did you anticipate
that CMS would be involved in a lawsuit against
Google?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer to the
extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel or at the direction
of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Can you answer that question?
A. I cannot.
Q. Okay. Did anybody -- this is a yes or
no question. Did any lawyer direct you to have
any conversations about online advertising in the
time period of January 2023?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer as that calls
for privileged communications with counsel and
their substance.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: Can I have Tab 4?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Much earlier in the day we talked about
weekly meetings that you have with your team. Do
you recall that testimony?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. Has the subject of CMS's online
advertising purchases ever been a topic of such
weekly meetings in the January 2023 time period
to your recollection?
A. I do not -MS. CLEMONS: Objection to the extent
that it would call for conversations directed by
counsel, or made at the request of counsel.
You may answer if the answer would not
be informed by conversations with counsel or
directed by counsel.
THE WITNESS: I do not recall. We
clearly talk about online advertising a lot. So
whether we talked about it in January or not, the
odds are high, yes.
///
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(Exhibit No. 72, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-64968 through 64971, was
introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you Exhibit 72,
CMS-ADS-64968 through 64971. And this is an
email that was sent to you on January 11th, 2023,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And the subject is SMG Weekly
Agenda. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the weekly agenda for the
full Strategic Marketing Group meetings that we
discussed at the beginning of the deposition?
A. No, it is not.
Q. Okay. For what group -- for what weekly
meeting is this the agenda? What category of
weekly meeting?
A. This is the agenda for a meeting between
me and my boss.
Q. Okay. How do you know that?
A. The SMG Weekly Meeting is the title of
the meeting between my boss and I.
Q. Okay. And your boss is not on this
Page
Page
email, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Who puts together this weekly
agenda for your meeting with your boss?
A. It is put together by me and my team.
Q. Okay. And you see the second bullet
here, Antitrust Online Advertising - Google
Banner Ads. What is that a reference to?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. Calls for
privileged information. I'm going to instruct
the witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. Does this bullet exist on this
agenda at the direction of any lawyer?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. Did any lawyer ask you to discuss
antitrust online advertising with your boss -MS. CLEMONS: Objection.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. -- at this time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Calls for privileged
communications with counsel. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. Did you discuss antitrust online
advertising with any of the individuals on this
email, the individuals in the "From" or the "cc"
or the "To" line?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. Calls for
privileged information and communications. I'm
going to instruct the witness not to answer to
the extent that your answer would be informed or
directed by privileged communications with
counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question,
sir?
A. No, I am not.
Q. Mm-hmm.
And is that because, to the extent you
discussed antitrust online advertising with any
of the individuals on this email, that it was
done -- that it was informed or directed by
communications with counsel?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer as that
question calls for the substance of privileged
communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
MS. GOODMAN: Okay. Ms. Clemons,
you understand that these questions are all
directed at establishing whether you've met the
evidentiary basis for invoking a privilege? And
so by preventing the witness from answering the
questions, you have actually precluded any record
on whether a privilege applies.
MS. CLEMONS: What you are asking is for
the witness to tell you what he talked to or did
not talk to counsel about. And we are perfectly
capable of establishing a record outside of you
asking the witness to describe his communications
with counsel.
MS. GOODMAN: I'm not asking him
to describe with any detail that reveals any
substance of any communications. I am asking for
the kind of information that would appear on a
privilege log that is necessary for you to
support a claim of privilege. And so I would
ask you to revisit your objections so that the
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witness can provide his under oath, sworn
testimony about whether a privilege applies.
MS. CLEMONS: And I'm going to instruct
the witness not to reveal the substance of
communications with counsel, -MS. GOODMAN: Okay.
MS. CLEMONS: -- or communications at
the direction of counsel.
MS. GOODMAN: Or communications informed by counsel, correct?
MS. CLEMONS: Yes.
MS. GOODMAN: So anything within the
penumbra of communications with counsel you will instruct the witness not to answer, correct?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm not sure exactly what
you mean by "penumbra of communications with
counsel," but, yes.
MS. GOODMAN: Okay.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Did you speak to Debra Hoffman about
antitrust online advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer as that
question calls for the substance of privileged
communications with counsel or communications
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directed by counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Did anybody direct you to speak to Debra
Hoffman about antitrust online advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Same objection.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Yes or no.
MS. CLEMONS: Instruct the witness not
to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. It's a yes or no question. Did anybody
direct you to have a conversation with Debra
Hoffman about antitrust online advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction, sir?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. And will you answer, sir, one way
or another, whether you had any conversations
with Debra Hoffman about online antitrust
advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: You could answer that yes
or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. So, sir, did you have any
conversations with Debra Hoffman about online
antitrust advertising?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What were the conversations you
had with Ms. Hoffman about antitrust online
advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer to the
extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel or reveal the
substance of directions of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: Can I have Tab 6?
MS. CLEMONS: We've actually been going
over an hour, so it might be time for a break.
THE WITNESS: Just kind of split it up.
What, we've got about an hour left, then?
MS. GOODMAN: Sure. Let's take a break.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5:25 p.m.
This ends Unit 5.
(Recess taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 5:40 p.m.
This begins Unit Number 6. We're on the record.
(Exhibit No. 73, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-440295, was introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Mr. Koepke, I'm handing you Exhibit 73,
CMS-ADS-440295.
A. Thank you.
Q. You're welcome.
And this is an email you received on
January 18th, 2023. Subject: Barb's two
-- two-on-one agenda, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The third bullet, Antitrust, do you know
what that's a reference to?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer to the extent
your answer would be informed by privileged
communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question
without relying on privilege communications with
counsel?
A. No, I'm not.
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Q. Okay. Did you have discussions on the
topic of antitrust online advertising with any
individuals within the Strategic Marketing Group?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. And I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer to the
extent your answer would reveal communications
with counsel or actions taken at the direction of
counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So my question is a simple yes or no
question: Did you have discussions on the
topic of antitrust online advertising with any
individuals within the Strategic Marketing Group?
Based on your client -- your counsel's
instruction, are you able to answer that question
yes or no?
MS. CLEMONS: You can answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Now you just asked
me two questions. I'm so sorry. What one do you
want me to ask -- answer?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Did you have discussions on the
topic of antitrust online advertising with any
individuals within the Strategic Marketing Group?
Yes or no.
Page
Page
A. Yes.
Q. Which individuals?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to caution the
witness not to answer if your answer would reveal
communications with counsel or actions taken at
the direction of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question,
sir?
A. No, I am not.
Q. So you cannot answer the names of
the people who you spoke with within Strategic
Marketing Group on the topic of antitrust online
advertising?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Did you have discussions with
anybody at any advertising agency working for CMS
on the topic of antitrust online advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to instruct the
witness not to answer to the extent that your
answer would reveal privileged communications
with counsel or actions taken at the direction of
counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. You can't answer that question yes or
no?
A. I cannot answer that question.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: I'll take 57 -- 58.
(Exhibit No. 74, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-531032 through 531072, was
introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. I'm handing you Exhibit 74,
CMS-ADS-531032 through 531072. And this is an
email you sent on January 12th, 2023, to Holly
Baier, correct?
A. Holly Baier, yes.
Q. Holly Baier. Okay. Who is Holly Baier?
A. Holly Baier is the special assistant in
the Strategic Marketing Group.
Q. Okay. And the second email down in the
thread you write, "Hi, guys. I think we share
this information. D1 shows how we account for
funds. I just think we should see if we could
block out names and their respective hourly
rates. What do you think." Do you see that?
A. I do see that.
Q. Okay. When you say, "I think we share
this information," who are you referring to
sharing this information with?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to object. To
the extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel or reveal the
direction of counsel, and if you have any
questions about where those lines might be or
whether something would reveal the directions of
counsel, we could take a break, if you need to.
THE WITNESS: I do not need to take a
break, so many questions on the table.
I'm taking advice of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. So you cannot answer the question
who are you -- you cannot answer, one way or the
other, based on the instruction of your lawyer,
who you are referring to when you say, "I think
we share this information." Is that acc -- am I
getting that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Why did you want to block out
names and their respective hourly rates?
A. Let's see. What was the date on this?
Q. January 12th, 2023.
A. January 12th.
At this time, January 12th, we were
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deposition is over and that Google does not have
grounds to hold the deposition open.
MS. GOODMAN: Okay. Thank you for your
time, Mr. Koepke.
THE WITNESS: It was my pleasure. This
was fun.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 6:23 p.m.
We're off the record.
(Deposition concluded -- 6:23 p.m.)
Katherine Clemons Esq
Katherine.clemons@usdoj.gov
August 22nd, RE: United States, Et Al v. Google, LLC
8/21/2023, Christopher Koepke (#6043164)
The above-referenced transcript is available for
review.
Within the applicable timeframe, the witness should
read the testimony to verify its accuracy. If there are
any changes, the witness should note those with the
reason, on the attached Errata Sheet.
The witness should sign the Acknowledgment of
Deponent and Errata and return to the deposing attorney.
Copies should be sent to all counsel, and to Veritext at
(erratas-cs@veritext.com).
Return completed errata within 30 days from
receipt of testimony.
If the witness fails to do so within the time
allotted, the transcript may be used as if signed.
Yours,
Veritext Legal Solutions
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CERTIFICATE
1 United States, Et Al v. Google, LLC
2 Christopher Koepke (#6043164)
I do hereby certify that I am a Notary
Public in good standing, that the aforesaid
testimony was taken before me, pursuant to
notice, at the time and place indicated; that
said deponent was by me duly sworn to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth; that the testimony of said deponent was
correctly recorded in machine shorthand by me and
thereafter transcribed under my supervision with
computer-aided transcription; that the deposition
is a true and correct record of the testimony
given by the witness; and that I am neither of
counsel nor kin to any party in said action, nor
interested in the outcome thereof.
ERRATA SHEET
4 PAGE_____ LINE_____ CHANGE________________________
5 __________________________________________________
6 REASON____________________________________________
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WITNESS my hand and official seal this
22nd day of August, 2023.
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<%11516,Signature%>
Notary Public
21 REASON____________________________________________
23 ________________________________ _______________
24 Christopher Koepke
Date
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Page 1 United States, Et Al v. Google, LLC
2 Christopher Koepke (#6043164)
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DEPONENT
I, Christopher Koepke, do hereby declare that I
5 have read the foregoing transcript, I have made any
6 corrections, additions, or changes I deemed necessary as
7 noted above to be appended hereto, and that the same is
8 a true, correct and complete transcript of the testimony
9 given by me.
11 ______________________________
12 Christopher Koepke
________________
Date
13 *If notary is required
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS
______ DAY OF ________________, 20___.
__________________________
NOTARY PUBLIC
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Federal Rules of Civil Procedure
Rule
(e) Review By the Witness; Changes.
(1) Review; Statement of Changes. On request by the
deponent or a party before the deposition is
completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days
after being notified by the officer that the
transcript or recording is available in which:
(A) to review the transcript or recording; and
(B) if there are changes in form or substance, to
sign a statement listing the changes and the
reasons for making them.
(2) Changes Indicated in the Officer's Certificate.
The officer must note in the certificate prescribed
by Rule 30(f)(1) whether a review was requested
and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent
makes during the 30-day period.
DISCLAIMER:
THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES
ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF APRIL 1,
2019.
PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES
OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION.
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
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__________________________
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, :
et al.,
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Plaintiffs
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v.
: No.
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GOOGLE, LLC,
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Defendants.
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1:23-cv-00108
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
Monday, August 21, 2023
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Video Deposition of CHRISTOPHER KOEPKE,
taken at the Law Offices of Paul, Weiss,
Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP, 2001 K St NW,
Washington, DC, beginning at 9:35 a.m. Eastern
Standard Time, before Ryan K. Black, Registered
Professional Reporter, Certified Livenote
Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia
Job No. CS6043164
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
ANTITRUST DIVISION
BY: KATHERINE CLEMONS, ESQ.
VICTOR LIU, ESQ.
ALVIN CHU, ESQ.
MARK SOSNOWSKY, ESQ. - Via Zoom
450 5th Street, N.W
Washington, DC 20530
202.514.2414
katherine.clemons@usdoj.gov
victor.liu@usdoj.gov
alvin.chu@usdoj.gov
mark.sosnowsky@usdoj.gov
Representing - The United States of America
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going on the record at 9:35 a.m. on August 21st,
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2023. Please note that the microphones are
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sensitive and may pick up whispering and private
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conversations. Please mute your phones at this
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time. Audio and video recording will continue to
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take place unless all parties agree to go off the
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record.
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video-recorded deposition of Mr. Christopher
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Koepke in the matter of United States, et al.,
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versus Google, LLC, filed in the United States
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District Court Eastern District of Virginia
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Alexandria Division, Case Number
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1:23-cv-00108-LMB-JFA.
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representing Veritext Legal Solutions, and I'm
Representing - Google LLC
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the videographer. The court reporter is Ryan
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Black, from the firm Veritext Legal Solutions.
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ALSO PRESENT:
Orson Braithwaite - Legal Videographer
Kenneth Whitley - Department of Health and Human
Services
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INDEX
TESTIMONY OF: CHRISTOPHER KOEPKE
By Ms. Goodman.................................6
EXHIBITS
EXHIBIT
DESCRIPTION
PAGE
Exhibit 65 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-11906 through 11974...117
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Exhibit 66 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-23248 through 23337...136
Exhibit 67 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-59892 through 59893...151
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Exhibit 68 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-593107 through 593110..167
Exhibit 69 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-183807 through 183811..181
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Exhibit 70 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-529199 through 529200..190
Exhibit 71 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-189390.................251
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Exhibit 72 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-64968 through 64971....258
Exhibit 73 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-440295.................265
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This is Media Unit 1 of the
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Exhibit 74 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-531032 through 531072..268
Exhibit 75 a document Bates Numbered
CMS-ADS-569654 through 569667..273
PAGE
My name is Orson Braithwaite,
Counsel will now state their appearances
and affiliations for the record.
MS. GOODMAN: Martha Goodman, from Paul
Weiss, on behalf of Google LLC.
MS. MILLIGAN: Heather Milligan, also on
behalf of Paul Weiss, for Google.
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are
PAUL, WEISS, RIFKIND, WHARTON & GARRISON LLP,
BY: MARTHA L. GOODMAN, ESQ.
HEATHER C. MILLIGAN, ESQ.
2001 K St NW,
Washington, DC
202.223.7341
mgoodman@paulweiss.com
hmilligan@paulweiss.com
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A P P E A R A N C E S:
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MS. CLEMONS: Katherine Clemons, with
the Department of Justice, on behalf of the
United States of America, CMS and the witness.
MR. LIU: Victor Liu, also with the
Department of Justice, on behalf of the United
States and CMS.
MR. CHU: Alvin Chu, on behalf of United
States.
MR. WHITLEY: Kenneth Whitley, Office of
General Counsel, Department of Health and Human
Services.
MS. GOODMAN: And could the folks
attending remotely please state your presence?
MR. SOSNOWSKY: Mark Sosnowsky,
Department of Justice, and I will be in and out
of this deposition remotely. So if you lose me,
please don't -- you can continue.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
Would the court reporter please swear in
the witness?
* * *
Whereupon -CHRISTOPHER KOEPKE,
called to testify, having been first duly sworn
or affirmed, was examined and testified as
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follows:
* * *
EXAMINATION
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Koepke.
A. Good morning.
Q. Have you been deposed before?
A. I think once. I'm not exactly sure it
was a formal deposition, -Q. Okay.
A. -- but yes.
Q. Was there a court reporter taking down
everything you were saying?
A. No, there was not.
Q. Okay. So in this deposition,
it's important that you allow me to finish my
question before you answer, because our court
reporter, Mr. Black, is taking down everything
we're saying -A. All right.
Q. -- and he can't take two people talking
at the same time. Okay?
A. All right.
Q. So please let me finish my question
before you begin your answer. Okay?
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A. Okay.
Q. Okay. And the court reporter also
cannot record nonverbal answers or half verbal
answers, like uh-huh or huh-uh, so please make
sure to speak in a -- answer the questions
verbally. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Okay. And I will assume that you
understand my questions unless you ask me for a
clarification. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. And is there any reason you're unable to
provide your truthful and accurate testimony here
today?
A. No.
Q. Okay. What is your current title?
A. Director of the Strategic Marketing
Group in the Office of Communications at the
Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.
Q. And what are your responsibilities as
the director of the Strategic Marketing Group at
the Office of Communications at the Centers for
Medicare and Medicaid Services?
A. When -- this federal agency is
responsible for Medicare, Medicaid and other
healthcare programs. When we need people,
citizens of America to take an action, it is my
job to do outreach to help them know what actions
they need to take. I could probably go on for
the rest of the day with details on that.
Q. I'm sure we'll get to it. How long have
you been the director -- is the strategic
marketing -- strike that.
Is the Strategic Marketing Group
abbreviated SMG?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. How long have you been director
of SMG?
A. Approximately nine to ten years.
Q. And prior to serving as director of SMG,
what -- what job did you have, if any?
A. I was the deputy director of the
Creative Services Group in the Office of
Communications at the Centers for Medicare and
Medicaid Services.
Q. And how long were you the deputy
director of the Creative Services Group?
A. I would say three to four years.
Q. In your role as director of SMG, who do
you report to?
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A. I report to the deputy director of the
Office of Communications.
Q. And what is that individual's name?
A. Mary Wallace.
Q. How long has Mary Wallace been the
person to whom you've -- who you report?
A. Nine to ten years.
Q. And to whom does Ms. Wallace report?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; foundation.
THE WITNESS: Many people, but the
administrator of CMS.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And who is the current administrator of
CMS?
A. Chiquita Brooks-LaSure.
Q. And how long has Ms. LaSure been the
administrator at CMS?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know when she was
confirmed.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. How many administrators of CMS
have you worked under over the course of your
time as director of SMG?
A. I could give you an approximate number.
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I'm sure I might be forgetting someone. Five or
six.
Q. And how about in the time period of 2019
to 2023, how many administrators have you worked
under in that time period?
A. There's one detail I can't remember, but
from confirmed administrators by the Senate would
be two.
Q. And what is the one detail you can't
remember?
A. Usually in between confirmed
administrators there is a career administrator,
and I cannot remember who that was or how many
there were between the last two confirmed ones.
Q. Okay. And are the -- those career
officials, are they serving in an acting
capacity, in your experience?
A. That is correct.
Q. And how many presidential
administrations have you served under?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; vague.
THE WITNESS: Five.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And are those both republican and
democratic administrations?
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A. Yes.
Q. Are you also an adjunct -- oh, strike
that.
Who reports to you in your role as
director of SMG?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: Do you want the entire
list of people or my immediate reports?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Let's go with your direct reports,
please.
A. Okay. There would be three division
directors, a special assistant, a deputy director
and an office administrator.
Q. And has that -- those one, two, three,
four, five -- have you always had six direct
reports in your time as director of SMG?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. How about in the time period of 2019 to
2023, have you always had six direct reports?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Who are the -- what are the three
divisions which report up to you as director of
SMG?
A. One of them is the Division of Research.
Another is the Division of Digital Marketing.
And the other one is the Division of Campaign
Management.
Q. Who is the head -- who is the division
director of the Research Division?
A. Clarese Astrin.
Q. How long has Ms. Astrin been the
director of the Research Division?
A. I'm not sure exactly how many years it's
been.
Q. Can you approximate?
A. About 10 years.
Q. Okay. Who is the director of Digital
Marketing?
A. Mark Krawczyk.
Q. How long has Mr. Krawczyk been the
director of Digital Marketing?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Can you approximate?
A. I can.
Q. What's your approximate -A. Six to seven years.
Q. Who is the director of the Campaign
Management Division?
A. Barbara Johanson.
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Q. And how long has Ms. Johanson been the
director of the Campaign Management Division?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. How about an approximation?
A. Three years.
Q. Prior to serving as director of the
Campaign Management Division, did Ms. Johanson
have a role in the SMG?
A. Yes.
Q. What was her role prior to becoming
director of the Campaign Management Division?
A. She was an analyst within that division
that she now directs.
Q. And who is the deputy director that
reports to you?
A. Laura Salerno.
Q. How long has she been the direct
-- deputy director at SMG?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. How about an approximation?
A. Three to four years.
Q. Prior to being the deputy director, did
Ms. Salerno have a job in the SMG?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. What was her role prior to becoming the
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deputy director?
A. She was the division director at the
division of Campaign Management.
Q. Ah. So Ms. Johanson succeeded
Ms. Salerno in that role; is that correct?
A. There would be points of clarification
on that, but for this purpose, yes.
Q. What are the points of clarification
that you're -- you're referencing?
A. Immediately following Laura becoming the
deputy director, we went through a few people on
detail to -- as it takes time to post a
position -Q. Got it.
A. -- and for people to compete.
Q. What are the responsibilities of the
Campaign Management Division?
A. There are many. Is there -- would -- do
you want to be more specific?
Q. Could you please start with a summary of
the responsibilities of the Campaign Management
Division?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I could, but I'm wondering
what part you would like me to summarize.
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BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. I want to understand at first a
high-level summary of what the Campaign
Management respons -- division's responsibilities
are.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And then I can ask further questions
from there to drill down on what I'm hoping to
learn from your testimony here today. Okay?
A. Okay. They manage the campaigns that
we conduct to serve people who need access to
healthcare.
Q. And by "campaigns," what do you mean?
A. Programs designed to reach our audiences
and inform them of the actions they need to take
so that they can access healthcare.
Q. And same -- same question for the
Digital Marketing Division. What as a -- can
you provide a high-level summary of the Digital
Marketing di -- division's responsibilities?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: Digital Marketing is
responsible for most of the agency's social media
and our direct response digital marketing
campaigns.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. What are "direct response digital
marketing campaigns"?
A. That's when you reach to individuals
directly, not through advertising, so, say,
email, texting, maybe auto dials.
Q. And so the Digital Marketing Division's
direct response campaigns do not involve
advertising agencies. Is that accurate?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: You know, there's gray
area for everything. I wouldn't -- could you
rephrase the question, please?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. In order to execute their direct
response marketing campaigns, does the Digital
Marketing Division engage with advertising
agencies via a contract?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. What advertising agencies do they engage
with?
A. Weber Shandwick, Elevation, and my other
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one would be a guess.
Q. Okay.
A. So I'm not a hundred percent sure. In
fact, I don't think so.
Q. The services that Weber Shandwick
and Elevation provide to the Digital Marketing
Division, are those under the same contracts
between CMS and those advertising agencies that
the Campaign Management Division uses?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think
through time periods. Sorry.
No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So is it accurate that the Digital
Marketing Division goes through a separate
contract with Weber Shandwick, for example, in
order to use advertising services for its work as
compared to the Campaign Management Division?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. Calls
for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay.
A. The purpose there is not to actually do
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But it demonstrated that the outreach resulted in
-- and this is the number I'm not -- but resulted
in many people getting health coverage.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. As compared to the prior year?
A. We did not do Mixed Media Modeling the
private -- prime -- the previous year, so as
related to the number of uninsured people, -Q. Got it.
A. -- the audience at that time. And other
factors that could also increase enrollment.
Q. What are the other factors that could
also increase enrollment to which you're
referring?
A. For a set number of years, a law was
passed that impacted the tax breaks that people
could get for having health insurance, thereby
reducing their premiums for the health insurance.
Q. So over the time period at issue, or
that I'm focusing on in this case, 2019 to 2023,
it's fair to say that the budget available for
advertising and outreach has increased, correct?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Okay. And how have you, in the
Strategic Marketing Group, made decisions about
how to spend those additional dollars over that
time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: We considered the audience
and how best to reach them, and we -- and we
distribute the funds accordingly.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And what changes have you observed with
respect to how best to reach the audiences you're
trying to reach over the 2019 to '23 time period
as part of the Open Enrollment campaigns?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure the channel
mix for most effectively reaching the audience
during that time period, based on my observations
of what would be best for reaching that audience,
has changed significantly, more subtle changes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And what are the subtle changes that you
have observed?
A. Over a time period, and this could be
beyond the time period that you're mentioning, so
that could be the problem with my thinking, but
display advertising has actually appeared, in my
memory, from best that I can recall, to become
more impactful.
Q. In what ways that you can recall has
display advertising become more impactful?
A. Best of my recollection, return on
investment appears to be higher.
Q. And what return on investment are you
tracking with respect to display advertising in
the Open Enrollment campaigns?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: We have primarily three
methods for looking at the role of display.
Method Number 1 is looking at the people who
directly interact with the ad, so what we often
call last-click attribution. Method Number 2 is
multi-source attribution; still within the
digital realm. And Method Number 3 is the Mixed
Media Modeling.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And so in what ways has the return on
investment according to those methods gotten
higher? Like, what changes are you seeing in
those metrics vis-a-vis return on investment?
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MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: To the best of my
recollection, we are seeing an ability to
attribute more application starts, and that is
the number of people who would actually be
applying for the tax break to help them pay for
their health insurance, and more enrolling due to
display ads, to the best of my recollection.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Have you observed any changes with
respect to meeting the audience you're trying to
reach with respect to video advertising in the
2019 to '23 time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are there any other subtle changes that
you have observed over the 2019 to 2023 time
period with respect to reaching the audience
you're trying to reach for health -- Open
Enrollment?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Okay. How about the -- have you
observed any changes in the availability of
advertising providers that you could use to reach
your audience over the 2019 to 2023 time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So earlier we talked about a lot of the
different programmatic providers that CMS has
used.
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. Do you recall that testimony?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. With respect to those providers,
were they all available to CMS in the 2019 year
as compared to the 2023 year?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you aware of any advertising
providers who were not available to CMS in
2019 but who are available to CMS in 2023?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I am not.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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best of my recollection, that type of display
ad has increased in its value to us.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And how does CMS go about -- what
methods does CMS use to place these kinds of
prospecting display ads?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: We direct our contractors
to do it on our behalf.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And do you direct them to use any
particular provider?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: We will direct them to use
particular providers.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. So with respect to the increasing
effectiveness of prospecting display ads, what
providers have you used?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Off the top of my mind, I
can think of two -BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Which are those?
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Q. Okay. So one of the subtle changes
that you said you observed was that display has
become more impactful, correct? And when you say
"display," can you be more detailed about what
kind of display advertising you mean that has
become more impactful as in having a higher
return on investment?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So kind of display really
covers a lot of categories, because there's
creative, there's delivery systems, there's
targeted. Do you have anything particularly in
mind?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. No. I want to understand what you mean
by "display being more impactful."
A. All right.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So to the best of my
recollection, display ads that -- what we would
call -- I don't know. Let me see. I've gotta
think of the term here -- prospecting. So those
are the ads that go out and find people who could
benefit from the program, who may or may not have
ever interacted with the program before. To the
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A. Which does not mean that there aren't
others.
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Q. Sure.
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A. So Google and MIQ.
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MS. GOODMAN: Shall we take a break for
lunch?
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MS. CLEMONS: Yeah.
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THE WITNESS: I'm good with whatever.
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:22
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p.m. This ends Unit 2. We're off the record.
(Lunch recess taken.)
(Exhibit No. 65, a document Bates
13
Numbered CMS-ADS-11906 through 11974, was
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introduced.)
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:14 p.m.
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This begins Unit Number 3. We're on the record.
17
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Mr. Koepke, I'm going to hand you a
19
document marked Exhibit 65, CMS-ADS-11906 through
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11974.
21
And this is a technical proposal from
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Weber Shandwick for Healthcare.gov 2010 Open
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Enrollment campaign, correct?
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25
A. I'm not sure. It's going to take me a
minute to look at it.
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Q. Sure.
A. It appears as such.
Q. Okay. And what is the purpose of a
technical proposal, to your knowledge?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: A technical proposal is
part of a contracting process. So the offerers,
which are the different ad agencies who might be
interested in contracting with the federal
government, would write a technical proposal to
show their abilities to meet the standards that
the federal government has set forward.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And did multiple different contractors
compete each year for the Open Enrollment
campaign, or was it only Webber Shandwick?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Each year?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Each year.
A. Okay. It was not always only Weber
Shandwick, to the best of my knowledge. I'm
actually not a hundred percent sure, but -- so I
don't know.
Q. Okay. As the director of the Strategic
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man -- Marketing Group, did you review technical
proposals?
A. No, I did not.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm so sorry.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Have you ever had occasion to read
them?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Have I ever had the
occasion to read a technical proposal of any
sort?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Of -- related to any advertising
campaign handled by the Strategic Marketing Group
at CMS.
A. You had a lot of very specific details
in that question that would lead me to say no.
Q. What are the specific details in my
question that would lead you to say no?
A. One of them was the "Strategic Marketing
Group."
Q. Did I state that incorrectly?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: You did not say "Strategic
Marketing Group" incorrectly. It sounded correct
to me.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. I don't understand what the
detail with respect to the Strategic Marketing
Group led you to say no to my question.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Can you explain that to me?
A. Your question had three parts: Have I
ever read a technical proposal. Is it about
advertising. And is it for the Strategic
Marketing Group at CMS. I guess that's four
parts.
The Strategic Marketing Group did not
exist when I read the technical proposals.
Q. When did you read the technical
proposals?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The early 2000s.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So since the early 2000s, is it accurate
that you have not read the strat -- the technical
proposals submitted by ad agencies?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
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THE WITNESS: The technical proposals
are written by -- are read and judged by trained
staff who work for me.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. And so your trained staff read
and review them, but you do not; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Do you discuss the technical
proposals with your staff?
A. I do not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because it is inappropriate for people
judging a technical proposal to talk with other
people about it in the process of an acquisition.
Q. Why is that improper or inappropriate?
A. I would only be doing conjecture, but
it's -- the government has a goal to be fair to
all businesses. And so, therefore, the people
who read the proposals and judge them are doing
so in a non-biased sense. And discussing with
anyone else could -- could increase or add bias
to a process.
Q. And which of your staff reviewed
technical proposals for the Healthcare.gov Open
Enrollment campaigns in the '19 to '23 time
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thing. And -- and just describe other products
and ask us what our goals are, and what have you,
so that they would have a better understanding
about how -- about how their products could be
used, because, of course, they're trying to sell
their products.
Q. Did you find those meetings to be
valuable?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Valuable in what way?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Valuable to the work that you do at CMS
in advertising.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: I find them valuable, in
part, because it's really interesting to me to
see how people do their work. And, yes, some of
the data analytics that we've actually requested
that they've done for us have been valuable.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Despite these meetings also being an
opportunity for Google to explain how their
products could be used, because, of course,
they're trying to sell their products, does CMS
still make an independent decision about which
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advertising products or services to use?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. Okay. Anything else, sitting here
today, that you can recall about any
conversations you have had with any individual
from Google -MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. -- relative to CMS's advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: That's a lot to try to
recall. So it -- true specifics? No.
Conversations? Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Any other types of conversations, other
than what we've discussed which you recall having
with Google?
A. Yes. Thank you.
Q. You're welcome.
A. In the search ad -- in the search ad
arena, Google accepts ads -- or has accepted ads,
from people who try to look like the government.
And we discover these ads sometimes. And every
time I see one, I would send it to Kunal, to
Michelle. And -- because most digital companies,
including Google, have a policy that an ad should
not -- what's the word I'm looking for -- mimic
-- that's not the word I'm looking for, but it's
like that, mimic some other existing
organization, or mimic the government when you're
not the government, basically.
So, you know, an ad that says they're
Medicare, and they're not actually Medicare, is
misleading to people, and there are a lot of
those ads on Google. And so when we find them,
we send them and they -- we have conversations
about that.
Q. And what steps, if any, do you ask
Google to take with respect to these ads -- these
search ads you're describing?
A. Take them down immediately. Asked for
some monitoring support. I've asked for it.
That is what I've asked for.
Q. And what -- what has Google, in return,
provided to you with respect to these search ads?
A. Google has taken ads down when we find
them, and that is Whac-A-Mole because anybody can
put up an ad on Google if they've got a credit
card. Google has created new policies about
taking out ads for health insurance, and have met
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with us about those policies.
Q. So is it fair to say that Google is
taking steps to address CMS's concerns with
respect to search ads that mimic the government?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It is fair to say Google
has taken steps with regard to search ads.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. How about with respect to display ads?
Are you aware of any conduct on the part of
Google with respect to display ads that has
negatively impacted CMS's advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. And I
would caution the witness not to -- to answer the
question if your answer would reveal privileged
communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question?
A. No.
Q. Prior to having any conversation with
any lawyer with respect to Google Ads, any lawyer
from the government, did you ever have any
concerns that Google was engaging in
anticompetitive conduct related to display
advertising?
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MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. Calls
for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And prior to any conversation with any
lawyer for the government, did you ever have any
concerns that Google was causing CMS to pay more
for display advertising than it should have been
paying?
A. Could you rephrase that, please -- or
not rephrase. Just repeat it. That's what I
meant. I'm so sorry.
Q. That's okay.
A. I used the wrong word.
Q. Prior to any conversation with any
lawyer for the government, did you ever have any
concerns that Google was causing CMS to pay more
for display advertising than it should have been
paying?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
THE WITNESS: The tough part here is
"should have been paying." That's an -- a really
-- that suggests a lot of information.
That being said, yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. And what -- what concerns did you have
with respect to Google causing CMS to pay more
for display advertising than it should have been
paying prior to any conversation with a lawyer
for the government?
A. It is possible -- in fact, indeed,
probable, that when you are purchasing ads on a
cost-per-impression basis, that you're buying
things that are not useful to you.
Q. And so in what ways has Google, to your
knowledge, caused you to buy things that are not
useful to you on a cost-per-impression basis?
And when I say you, I mean CMS.
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It has been a concern that
we have discussed. Whether it is -- the way you
put the question was, like, pure knowledge.
Because other ways to potentially buy, which we
have not been able to do, would be to buy based
on outcomes instead of impressions.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And is Google the only provider that you
buy ads on an impression basis for, or are there
other providers -MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. -- who charge on such a basis, to your
knowledge?
MS. CLEMONS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: There are other providers.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And do you have the same concerns with
respect to providers other than Google who charge
on a cost-per-impression basis?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. Has anybody at any advertising
agency with whom CMS works ever told you that
Google was engaging in anticompetitive conduct
related to display advertising?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Okay. So sitting here today, and prior
to any conversation with any lawyer for the
government, can you recall any concerns you've
ever had with respect to Google's conduct and its
affect on CMS's display advertising purchases?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Extremely informal
conversations between me and my colleagues.
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BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. And what extremely informal
conversations between you and your colleagues are
you referencing?
A. Ones where we notice that all
the digital ads that we place go through
double-click; that the analytics come through
Google analytics. There just seems to be a lot
of Google along the ways. And we've had those
comments, conversations and we just move on.
Because, in the end of the day, we're just doing
our jobs.
Q. And have you rai -- ever raised those
conversations with anybody outside of your
colleagues?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to the extent
that question calls for privileged communications
with counsel. If you're -- if you can answer
without referencing or being informed by
privileged communications with counsel, you
may do so.
THE WITNESS: Sorry. I'm just trying to
think and remember. It's mental gymnastics at
this point. So -BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Was it in 2023 or 2022?
A. I believe it was in 2023.
Q. And how did you become aware in 2023 of
an investigation by the Department of Justice
into Google?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; privileged.
And I'm going to instruct the witness not to
answer to the extent that your answer would be
informed by or reveal privileged communications
with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question,
sir?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So is it fair to say, then, you
became aware of an investigation by DOJ through
lawyers?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. Calls for
privileged information. I'm going to instruct
the witness not to answer.
MS. GOODMAN: I'm not asking for the
communications. I'm asking for how he learned of
something. The fact of learning it from lawyers
is not privileged, one way or another. I'm not
asking for the communications by which he learned
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of it. I'm not asking for the substance of any
discussions. I'm asking for how he learned this
fact.
MS. CLEMONS: You are assuming that he
learned something and then asking whether he
learned that fact through communications with
counsel, which is the topic of the communication
with counsel through which someone would learn
something.
MS. GOODMAN: And it's the same kind of
thing that would appear on a privilege log. It
doesn't delve into the substance of the
communications.
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to instruct the
witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. Are you going to follow that
instruction?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: Can I have Tab 3?
(Exhibit No. 71, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-189390, was introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Exhibit 71, CMS-ADS-189390. This is a
Microsoft Teams invite for a meeting. Subject:
DOJ HHS CMS call regarding online advertising
purchasing, which you are on in the "To" line,
correct?
A. I'm trying to get the subject. I will
say what is correct is that I am on the "To"
line.
Ah, there's the subject. Sorry.
DOJ HHS CMS call regarding online
advertising purchasing, so, yes, correct.
Q. And this -- did you recall -- do you
recall participating in this call on January 6th,
2023?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And to your recollection, did the
call last the 30 minutes between 3 and 3:30 p.m.
as reflected on this meeting invite?
A. I do not recollect.
Q. Okay. Do you think it lasted longer or
shorter than that amount of time?
A. I do not recollect.
Q. Okay. Did you understand the purpose of
this call to -- for DOJ to understand how CMS
buys online ads?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. To the
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extent that question calls for privileged
communications with counsel, I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer if your answer
would be informed by communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question?
A. I'm going to take counsel's direction.
Q. Okay. So the only knowledge you have as
to the purpose of this call is from lawyers; is
that correct?
MS. CLEMONS: You can answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. Sitting here today, can you think
of any other source, other than communications
with counsel, that informed your understanding of
the purpose of this call in Exhibit 71 on January
6th, 2023?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to object to the
extent it calls for communications with other CMS
employees that were directed by counsel. So you
may answer so long as your answer would not
reveal privileged communications with counsel or
directed by counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Can you answer that question?
A. I'm going to take counsel's instruction.
Q. Okay. Well, she said you may answer as
long as your answer would not reveal privileged
communications with counsel or directed by
counsel, so can you answer?
A. By saying I'm taking the instruction,
I'm taking the second half of that, that it is
privileged communication.
Q. Okay. How do you know if any
communications that you have had with any
CMS employee are directed by counsel?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to the
extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel, or communications
with other CMS employees that were directed by
counsel, I'm going to instruct the witness not to
answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Can you answer that question, sir?
A. I cannot.
Q. Okay. At the time of this meeting,
January 6th, 2023, did you have any personal
view on participating in a conversation with the
Department of Justice on the topic of online
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advertising purchasing?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form. And
I'm also going to instruct the witness not to
answer if your answer would reveal the
com -- privileged communications with counsel.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So setting aside any conversations with
any lawyer, I'm asking for your personal view on
having to participate in a conversation with
regard to online advertising purchasing. Did you
have a personal view one way or the other?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Did you want to participate in that
call?
A. That's a different question.
Q. Okay. What's the answer to that
question?
A. Sort of.
Q. Why do you say "sort of"?
A. I'm a curious person.
Q. Is there any reason you did not want to
participate in that call?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection; form.
Foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not particularly.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. When -- at the time of this
communication in January 2023, did you anticipate
that CMS would be involved in a lawsuit against
Google?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer to the
extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel or at the direction
of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Can you answer that question?
A. I cannot.
Q. Okay. Did anybody -- this is a yes or
no question. Did any lawyer direct you to have
any conversations about online advertising in the
time period of January 2023?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer as that calls
for privileged communications with counsel and
their substance.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
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Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: Can I have Tab 4?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Much earlier in the day we talked about
weekly meetings that you have with your team. Do
you recall that testimony?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. Has the subject of CMS's online
advertising purchases ever been a topic of such
weekly meetings in the January 2023 time period
to your recollection?
A. I do not -MS. CLEMONS: Objection to the extent
that it would call for conversations directed by
counsel, or made at the request of counsel.
You may answer if the answer would not
be informed by conversations with counsel or
directed by counsel.
THE WITNESS: I do not recall. We
clearly talk about online advertising a lot. So
whether we talked about it in January or not, the
odds are high, yes.
///
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(Exhibit No. 72, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-64968 through 64971, was
introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you Exhibit 72,
CMS-ADS-64968 through 64971. And this is an
email that was sent to you on January 11th, 2023,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And the subject is SMG Weekly
Agenda. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the weekly agenda for the
full Strategic Marketing Group meetings that we
discussed at the beginning of the deposition?
A. No, it is not.
Q. Okay. For what group -- for what weekly
meeting is this the agenda? What category of
weekly meeting?
A. This is the agenda for a meeting between
me and my boss.
Q. Okay. How do you know that?
A. The SMG Weekly Meeting is the title of
the meeting between my boss and I.
Q. Okay. And your boss is not on this
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email, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Who puts together this weekly
agenda for your meeting with your boss?
A. It is put together by me and my team.
Q. Okay. And you see the second bullet
here, Antitrust Online Advertising - Google
Banner Ads. What is that a reference to?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. Calls for
privileged information. I'm going to instruct
the witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. Does this bullet exist on this
agenda at the direction of any lawyer?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. Did any lawyer ask you to discuss
antitrust online advertising with your boss -MS. CLEMONS: Objection.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. -- at this time period?
MS. CLEMONS: Calls for privileged
communications with counsel. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. Did you discuss antitrust online
advertising with any of the individuals on this
email, the individuals in the "From" or the "cc"
or the "To" line?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. Calls for
privileged information and communications. I'm
going to instruct the witness not to answer to
the extent that your answer would be informed or
directed by privileged communications with
counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question,
sir?
A. No, I am not.
Q. Mm-hmm.
And is that because, to the extent you
discussed antitrust online advertising with any
of the individuals on this email, that it was
done -- that it was informed or directed by
communications with counsel?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer as that
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question calls for the substance of privileged
communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
MS. GOODMAN: Okay. Ms. Clemons,
you understand that these questions are all
directed at establishing whether you've met the
evidentiary basis for invoking a privilege? And
so by preventing the witness from answering the
questions, you have actually precluded any record
on whether a privilege applies.
MS. CLEMONS: What you are asking is for
the witness to tell you what he talked to or did
not talk to counsel about. And we are perfectly
capable of establishing a record outside of you
asking the witness to describe his communications
with counsel.
MS. GOODMAN: I'm not asking him
to describe with any detail that reveals any
substance of any communications. I am asking for
the kind of information that would appear on a
privilege log that is necessary for you to
support a claim of privilege. And so I would
ask you to revisit your objections so that the
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1
witness can provide his under oath, sworn
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testimony about whether a privilege applies.
3
MS. CLEMONS: And I'm going to instruct
4
the witness not to reveal the substance of
5
communications with counsel, -6
MS. GOODMAN: Okay.
7
MS. CLEMONS: -- or communications at
8
the direction of counsel.
MS. GOODMAN: Or communications informed 9
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by counsel, correct?
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MS. CLEMONS: Yes.
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MS. GOODMAN: So anything within the
penumbra of communications with counsel you will 13
14
instruct the witness not to answer, correct?
15
MS. CLEMONS: I'm not sure exactly what
16
you mean by "penumbra of communications with
17
counsel," but, yes.
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MS. GOODMAN: Okay.
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BY MS. GOODMAN:
20
Q. Did you speak to Debra Hoffman about
21
antitrust online advertising?
22
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
23
instruct the witness not to answer as that
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question calls for the substance of privileged
25
communications with counsel or communications
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directed by counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Did anybody direct you to speak to Debra
Hoffman about antitrust online advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Same objection.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Yes or no.
MS. CLEMONS: Instruct the witness not
to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. It's a yes or no question. Did anybody
direct you to have a conversation with Debra
Hoffman about antitrust online advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction, sir?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. And will you answer, sir, one way
or another, whether you had any conversations
with Debra Hoffman about online antitrust
advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: You could answer that yes
or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. So, sir, did you have any
conversations with Debra Hoffman about online
antitrust advertising?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What were the conversations you
had with Ms. Hoffman about antitrust online
advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer to the
extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel or reveal the
substance of directions of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you following that instruction?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: Can I have Tab 6?
MS. CLEMONS: We've actually been going
over an hour, so it might be time for a break.
THE WITNESS: Just kind of split it up.
What, we've got about an hour left, then?
MS. GOODMAN: Sure. Let's take a break.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5:25 p.m.
This ends Unit 5.
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(Recess taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 5:40 p.m.
This begins Unit Number 6. We're on the record.
(Exhibit No. 73, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-440295, was introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Mr. Koepke, I'm handing you Exhibit 73,
CMS-ADS-440295.
A. Thank you.
Q. You're welcome.
And this is an email you received on
January 18th, 2023. Subject: Barb's two
-- two-on-one agenda, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The third bullet, Antitrust, do you know
what that's a reference to?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer to the extent
your answer would be informed by privileged
communications with counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question
without relying on privilege communications with
counsel?
A. No, I'm not.
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Q. Okay. Did you have discussions on the
topic of antitrust online advertising with any
individuals within the Strategic Marketing Group?
MS. CLEMONS: Objection. And I'm going
to instruct the witness not to answer to the
extent your answer would reveal communications
with counsel or actions taken at the direction of
counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. So my question is a simple yes or no
question: Did you have discussions on the
topic of antitrust online advertising with any
individuals within the Strategic Marketing Group?
Based on your client -- your counsel's
instruction, are you able to answer that question
yes or no?
MS. CLEMONS: You can answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Now you just asked
me two questions. I'm so sorry. What one do you
want me to ask -- answer?
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Did you have discussions on the
topic of antitrust online advertising with any
individuals within the Strategic Marketing Group?
Yes or no.
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A. Yes.
Q. Which individuals?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to caution the
witness not to answer if your answer would reveal
communications with counsel or actions taken at
the direction of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Are you able to answer that question,
sir?
A. No, I am not.
Q. So you cannot answer the names of
the people who you spoke with within Strategic
Marketing Group on the topic of antitrust online
advertising?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Did you have discussions with
anybody at any advertising agency working for CMS
on the topic of antitrust online advertising?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to instruct the
witness not to answer to the extent that your
answer would reveal privileged communications
with counsel or actions taken at the direction of
counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. You can't answer that question yes or
no?
A. I cannot answer that question.
Q. Okay.
MS. GOODMAN: I'll take 57 -- 58.
(Exhibit No. 74, a document Bates
Numbered CMS-ADS-531032 through 531072, was
introduced.)
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. I'm handing you Exhibit 74,
CMS-ADS-531032 through 531072. And this is an
email you sent on January 12th, 2023, to Holly
Baier, correct?
A. Holly Baier, yes.
Q. Holly Baier. Okay. Who is Holly Baier?
A. Holly Baier is the special assistant in
the Strategic Marketing Group.
Q. Okay. And the second email down in the
thread you write, "Hi, guys. I think we share
this information. D1 shows how we account for
funds. I just think we should see if we could
block out names and their respective hourly
rates. What do you think." Do you see that?
A. I do see that.
Q. Okay. When you say, "I think we share
this information," who are you referring to
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sharing this information with?
MS. CLEMONS: I'm going to object. To
the extent that your answer would be informed by
communications with counsel or reveal the
direction of counsel, and if you have any
questions about where those lines might be or
whether something would reveal the directions of
counsel, we could take a break, if you need to.
THE WITNESS: I do not need to take a
break, so many questions on the table.
I'm taking advice of counsel.
BY MS. GOODMAN:
Q. Okay. So you cannot answer the question
who are you -- you cannot answer, one way or the
other, based on the instruction of your lawyer,
who you are referring to when you say, "I think
we share this information." Is that acc -- am I
getting that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Why did you want to block out
names and their respective hourly rates?
A. Let's see. What was the date on this?
Q. January 12th, 2023.
A. January 12th.
At this time, January 12th, we were
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deposition is over and that Google does not have
grounds to hold the deposition open.
MS. GOODMAN: Okay. Thank you for your
time, Mr. Koepke.
THE WITNESS: It was my pleasure. This
was fun.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 6:23 p.m.
We're off the record.
(Deposition concluded -- 6:23 p.m.)
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Katherine Clemons Esq
Katherine.clemons@usdoj.gov
August 22nd, 2023
RE: United States, Et Al v. Google, LLC
8/21/2023, Christopher Koepke (#6043164)
The above-referenced transcript is available for
review.
Within the applicable timeframe, the witness should
read the testimony to verify its accuracy. If there are
any changes, the witness should note those with the
reason, on the attached Errata Sheet.
The witness should sign the Acknowledgment of
Deponent and Errata and return to the deposing attorney.
Copies should be sent to all counsel, and to Veritext at
(erratas-cs@veritext.com).
Return completed errata within 30 days from
receipt of testimony.
If the witness fails to do so within the time
allotted, the transcript may be used as if signed.
Yours,
Veritext Legal Solutions
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CERTIFICATE
1 United States, Et Al v. Google, LLC
2 Christopher Koepke (#6043164)
I do hereby certify that I am a Notary
Public in good standing, that the aforesaid
testimony was taken before me, pursuant to
notice, at the time and place indicated; that
said deponent was by me duly sworn to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth; that the testimony of said deponent was
correctly recorded in machine shorthand by me and
thereafter transcribed under my supervision with
computer-aided transcription; that the deposition
is a true and correct record of the testimony
given by the witness; and that I am neither of
counsel nor kin to any party in said action, nor
interested in the outcome thereof.
3
ERRATA SHEET
4 PAGE_____ LINE_____ CHANGE________________________
5 __________________________________________________
6 REASON____________________________________________
7 PAGE_____ LINE_____ CHANGE________________________
8 __________________________________________________
9 REASON____________________________________________
10 PAGE_____ LINE_____ CHANGE________________________
11 __________________________________________________
12 REASON____________________________________________
13 PAGE_____ LINE_____ CHANGE________________________
14 __________________________________________________
15 REASON____________________________________________
16 PAGE_____ LINE_____ CHANGE________________________
WITNESS my hand and official seal this
22nd day of August, 2023.
17 __________________________________________________
18 REASON____________________________________________
19 PAGE_____ LINE_____ CHANGE________________________
20 __________________________________________________
<%11516,Signature%>
Notary Public
21 REASON____________________________________________
22
23 ________________________________ _______________
24 Christopher Koepke
Date
25
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Page 294
1 United States, Et Al v. Google, LLC
2 Christopher Koepke (#6043164)
3
4
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DEPONENT
I, Christopher Koepke, do hereby declare that I
5 have read the foregoing transcript, I have made any
6 corrections, additions, or changes I deemed necessary as
7 noted above to be appended hereto, and that the same is
8 a true, correct and complete transcript of the testimony
9 given by me.
10
11 ______________________________
12 Christopher Koepke
________________
Date
13 *If notary is required
14
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS
15
______ DAY OF ________________, 20___.
16
17
18
__________________________
19
NOTARY PUBLIC
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Federal Rules of Civil Procedure
Rule 30
(e) Review By the Witness; Changes.
(1) Review; Statement of Changes. On request by the
deponent or a party before the deposition is
completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days
after being notified by the officer that the
transcript or recording is available in which:
(A) to review the transcript or recording; and
(B) if there are changes in form or substance, to
sign a statement listing the changes and the
reasons for making them.
(2) Changes Indicated in the Officer's Certificate.
The officer must note in the certificate prescribed
by Rule 30(f)(1) whether a review was requested
and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent
makes during the 30-day period.
DISCLAIMER:
THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES
ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF APRIL 1,
2019.
PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES
OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION.
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VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
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